This transcript has been lightly edited for readability. It may still contain transcription errors.
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. On today’s episode, we cover a wide variety of topics. We go through comparing yourself to others and how to stop doing that. The importance of rating, what it means to read books and how you can get the most out of doing that
and range and how that’s an important thing to keep in mind as you go through your career. This episode is really great. I’m really excited for this episode. So please enjoy.
James: Hello, and welcome to Graduate Theory. My guest today is a man of many talents. He’s had many side hustles, including tutoring, high school students, writing books and podcasting. He’s an account manager by day. My guest, co-hosts the, what you will learn podcast. It has over 3 million downloads and he’s interviewed some of the best authors in the world.
The podcast is all about the best lessons from books and has also resulted in his own book. The shit they never taught you. They came out early this year, compiling the lessons that the hosts have learned from their reading. My guest today is a very accomplished and definitely well read, please. Welcome Adam, Ashton,
Adam Ashton: Thanks, man. I’m looking forward to it. We’ve had a lot in common. So I’m sure there’ll be a, there’ll be lots of talk about, oh, so I wonder where you get that three Millstadt. Cause I think we just cracked five. So I’ll have to update that wherever that is
James: Well, yeah, I think, I think I actually heard it from another podcast episode you’re on. So perhaps in the time that got that’s what I was trying, I was trying to go like at over 3 million, because I knew it would be like, at
Adam Ashton: It is over
James: Yeah.
Adam Ashton: Million.
James: Yeah.
It’s at least five to me now, which is even better.
Adam’s Graduate Experience#
James: Fantastic. Well, so I want to start off like with your, with your experiences at grand. Cause I know we, like you said, we’ve got things in common and I’m a grad at ANZ at the moment and it turns out you actually gravitated and it as well about five years ago now. So I want to ask about your experience as a grad.
And I know you’ve done a lot of things on the side through through uni and even through to what you’re doing now. But I want to first, let’s dial into your experience as a grad. What was that like for you and, and kind of, what did you, what did you take from that into things you do today?
Adam Ashton: Well, I went the, probably the fortuitous path where I was, I managed to JAG the internship first. And so it was like a eight week internship over summer, the year before. Finishing uni, so had do the internship and then it was kind of like a, a try before you buy some people got offered the graduate spot and then they’d go back and finish the year of uni.
And then you knew, that you had that, that gig locked in for the following year. It was probably. Maybe 40 interns. I don’t know how many spots they were going for. They were trying to fill up in my specific area. There was 10 or 12 interns probably going for five or six spots. And it was funny.
I actually met up with some of my mates from that internship just last month. And some of them were saying like, at the time, They were like, okay, Josh, I know he’s getting in Suroosh I know he’s getting in. They’ll like, well, it was good to see Adam over these, this eight week internship, but I don’t think we’re going to see him again.
And then that will perplex perplexed the first day one, when I walked back in and they were just shocked that I managed to get that offer. So that probably gives you a little bit of an insight as to I probably wasn’t the best intern. And I definitely wasn’t the best grad but I probably knew enough to just kind of, obviously I did enough and knew enough to impress enough people to get that early offer for the graduate program.
But in all honesty, I probably just didn’t know what I wanted to do. Didn’t know what I should be doing. And I just kind of like that. The easy path, I guess, because I was doing commerce. Everybody was like applying for internships. So I was like, well, if this is the game, this is the competition who can get this spot.
Well, I guess I like competing, so I’ll see if I can get this job offer. So I managed to get that job offer. And then I was like, okay, well, The game now is to compete to get this grad spot. So I did what I had to do to compete, to get that grad spot. So it was kind of just like each time the game was kind of evolving without really thinking about what game I was playing.
I was just thinking, okay, well, this is what I’m doing. So I’m going to see if I can do it as best as I can without ever taking that step back to think about what do I want to do. So, yeah, if I. I wasn’t the best grad because the game then kind of disappeared. It was like, okay, well I’ve got the grad role now.
What’s what’s the game now. And I didn’t really know where I was headed. Didn’t know what I was going to do. So I really didn’t do a whole lot in all honesty. And so it was a short-lived graduate experience. That’s for sure.
James: Yeah, that’s cool. When is that? Intentionality almost is saying that,
Comparing Yourself at the 10 Year Reunion#
James: I’ve been reading a bit about recently. Is that something that you now. Like you’re saying you sort of in that competition of getting grad roles and you’re sort of doing the successful things at work or whatever, and then not really having that reason or really deciding to do that yourself.
You’re just kind of following along with no real direction. Is that something that you take in to the things you do now, more so than you did in the past?
Adam Ashton: Definitely more now. Yeah. And I, I still I’d be lying if I said I didn’t get those, those pangs of of envy when you see other people were like, we were meant to have our 10 year high school reunion. But COVID kind of put that off. Cancel that a couple of times. So we haven’t had it yet, but still like at that 10 year, mark.
With different people, doing different things. So have climbed the corporate ladder. Who’ve got fancy titles and big salaries and traveling around the world. And there’s still those pangs of envy that if maybe if I had to stuck it out and worked harder at this specific thing and this narrow path, and I probably could have climbed up if I had chosen to do that.
But at the same time, there’s definitely no regrets. There’s definitely much more intentionality around sort of carving my own path and, and trying to work out my own way through as opposed to just following. The well-worn path that’s laid out in front of you.
James: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s cool. I think that’s really cool. And I think that whole intentionality, really deciding what you’re going to do, I think is so important because it’s, even if it’s like, let’s say you even managed to get those, corporate, you’re 10 years in, you need the fancy title.
Like you said, you might not even have enjoyed doing that. So it’s actually deciding to do it is really important. And having that interest in doing it as well as is important, because you.
don’t want to get in that situation where you’ve done that for so long. And then now you’re realizing, okay, I’m going to decide to like, take control over what I’m doing.
And then you’ve got to almost, maybe not wasted, but it becomes harder to do that because you’ve just got so much time sunk into doing that same thing.
Adam Ashton: Yeah, definitely. I wouldn’t have enjoyed it at all. I don’t think I would have enjoyed the path and I wouldn’t have enjoyed the destination either. So it’s good. It’s definitely good to know that. And obviously if it would have been better to know that even earlier, but It probably was a thing I had to do rather than now.
Like if I had completely gone somewhere totally different from the start, I probably would’ve had more of the what ifs, but cause I kind of had started along that path and I knew what was lying ahead. It gives me I can sleep a bit easier at night knowing that I’m not missing out.
James: Yeah. Yeah. I think even going back to what you were saying about like the 10 year reunion, because I had my, I mean, when was my, I had my five-year one recently as well, when you can start to see that kind of come into things where this person is doing that, like, what have I done with my other five years?
Like, have I just been like, I’ve been lazy, like, we would like, that whole thing where you’re sort of comparing yourself to everyone. Is there anything that you try and do to kind of stop that or, or. Right. Yeah.
Any, yeah. How do you deal with that when you’re faced with those things where someone’s sitting there and they’ve done some cool thing, and then you really, it was almost, you almost shine the light back on yourself and thinking, oh, like, why haven’t I done something that’s, the same as that, even, even in your case where like you maybe didn’t even want to do that, but it’s still hard to be like, oh, like I could have done that if I wanted to, but I chose not to sort of thing
Adam Ashton: Yeah, definitely. I think one, one part of it is, is recognizing that one part of it is, is recognizing that. Their goal is not your goal. They’re sort of, their position is not your position. Their trajectory is not your trajectory. They’re on their own path and you’re on your own path. That’s definitely one part of it.
But then I think the, probably even the better part of it is recognizing that, Hey, whatever they did to achieve their success, like they obviously worked hard or knew somebody or tried a lot of things or whatever it was that they did to get to where they are. You can probably do that as well. So not looking at.
With a sense of envy, but looking at almost like with a sense of sort of admiration and thinking, okay, well, good on them. They’ve done that. I could probably do the same thing if I wanted to emulate that. What can I do as well? So not looking at it as a poor woe is me. They’re up there and I’m down here more thinking, okay, well, they got there somehow.
What can I take from them to then apply to my own sort of trajectory and my own journey and do that as.
James: Yeah, I like that a lot. I think it’s even saying, good on them for doing such a cool thing. Like, like, congratulations, like you’ve done so well, like, and kind of having that more of a collaboration type thing where it’s like, Good on you for doing this. That’s so great. Like, rather than it being this sort of competition where it’s like, oh, they’re, they’re up here and yeah, like you said, they’re up here and I’m down here and it becomes this kind of weird thing where you’re sort of comparing yourself and then it, I dunno, it could even affect the relationship almost because you’ve just got this thing in your head where it’s like, whenever you speak to them, it’s like, oh, you’re, you’re doing this and I’m doing this.
And so I don’t feel worthy to speak to you now. Or like, I don’t like you because you’re, you’re like further ahead than me. And then it, whereas it could be something really great weather in this position and it’s, it could be a fantastic opportunity to meet, like to connect to them. And like you said, work out how they did that and, and take some of those lessons into what you’re doing yourself.
Adam Ashton: Yeah, definitely most certainly. And I think then the other, it kind of works. It works multiple different ways as well. It works for other, your other friends who are doing different things. I think like the five-year it starts to happen. I think the 10 years really when it happens. Cause the five-year like people are probably.
Still at uni or just finishing uni. Whereas the 10 years, I kind of, you got a few years of career under your belt. Some people have really accelerated some people haven’t and those differences start to appear. I think the one that’s worse for me is then looking down at people, who have, five years younger who have then accelerated past me.
That’s probably harder than the people who are at my level and went higher, but that’s, that’s probably a different story.
Leaving a Graduate Role#
James: Yeah. Oh, that’s so funny. Well, yeah, I want to, let’s talk a little bit more about your career and stuff. Cause you’re like you said, you were grounded and sandwiches, which is great. And then I’m curious to know, you kind of were talking about how you didn’t really enjoy that a great deal when you couldn’t really see yourself going further into sort of the most traditional.
Kind of path. What was, what happened after that? Did you change jobs or, what was the kind of thoughts at that stage?
Adam Ashton: Yeah. So I’d got, so did that eight week internship. I did the first six month rotation, and then I got about halfway through the second six month rotation. And this, this whole time along like, even while I was in uni, I, I tried and started a couple of different businesses, just like small, small businesses, mostly my own sort of.
Like may selling my time for money type of thing. And trying to scale that as opposed to like creating a product or creating an app or something like that. But so I’d done those. So I kind of always already had that itch and then I started reading books. So I kind of already had that itch as well.
I was going to expose to a whole bunch of different ideas initially. I was just, I thought that was the path that I thought I knew was the only path there was, but then I started. There are all these different paths that were possible. And then I went to Tony Robbins as well, went to Tony Robbins, walked on fire unleash the power within.
And that was probably the moment where I was like okay, well, I’m not liking this. I’m not going anywhere. The problem for me was like, I wasn’t doing it properly because I was, my mind was elsewhere that I wasn’t really focused. I wasn’t doing the job properly. I wasn’t learning anything. I wasn’t doing what I should have been doing.
So for me, the best thing was just to get out or to. And it was just kind of the circuit breaker I needed. I think I still, it wasn’t like, that was the moment where I quit and then everything became clear. It was still very murky and it probably still is a bit murky. But it was probably enough to then start to force intentionality, I guess, start to think a little bit more about what I want ahead.
Tony Robbins and Career Exploration#
James: Yeah.
that’s really cool. And really interesting how you went to a Tony Robbins thing because I’ve seen them around as well. And like, well, like I don’t think he is, he wouldn’t have done them in person. Definitely not in Australia in the last few years, which is probably like the times where I would have started looking.
Cause I’ve, since, I’ve been working the last year. But that’s really interesting. What was the, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on doing those things, like paying for those kinds of courses and sort of almost upskilling, if you want to call it that or like those soft skill kind of experiences or, things like that.
What was your process was kind of deciding to do that? was there anything that led you to seeing that as an opportunity and really wanting to be.
Adam Ashton: I think it was just that I wanted I wanted more than what I was already getting as in, I wasn’t really content with the, with the job and the sort of the career path that I was on. So I wanted something else and, and it came in all different forms, obviously the F the free stuff, listening to podcasts all the time, trying to meet different people all the time.
And then like the smaller paid stuff, which was the, the books mostly As you can say, got a shit load of books behind me. And so there was lots of buying books and then obviously the bigger stuff then as well was like the, the in-person events or the courses and things like that. It was just came from always wanting more, wanting to learn more, wanting to do something different, wanting to try out different things.
Which was at the time. Very, very good. But I think it comes to a point where you probably need to stop trying to take in more information and start doing stuff. So if you, if I was like, if fast forward five years, I was still going to all these different courses, trying to find the right thing, then I think that will be bad.
But when I’m in there for a little bit of that searching period, and then actually starting to make some decisions and some commitments and signed to take the next path I think was definitely.
James: Yeah, I think that’s interesting. Definitely
The Learning and Doing Balance#
James: Cause I think that’s something that I found too, like what you sit there about, reading and, and doing like you almost learn. As like your full-time thing rather than sort of acting on the learning. And that’s something that I found it, I think was it 20, 20?
I think I, I read 50, it was my goal to like read 52 books in a year. So I was like, yeah, I’m going to read a lot, like, read and sort of, sort of cheat by listening to audio books as well. But I was kind of doing that. And then as I got closer to the end of the year, I’d kind of, maybe had like six or seven to do in December.
So I was odd, like the pressure was on basically. It’s always just, reading as much as I could. And I just found that I was reading, not because I really wanted to, or because it was something that I was reading because like, oh yeah, I read this book and it will be valuable in this way.
It was kind of just to raise so that I could get to this particular number. I think that can kind of happen with the courses and even books as well. It’s like, you just, it’s like almost a mini achievement to read the book rather than getting the achievement from. Doing something with what’s in the book, which I think is probably it’s like way more important.
Adam Ashton: I do think people can get addicted to learning and stuff and it, and again, it comes like another game or another competition. Like for me, that competition of like getting that job and then getting the graduate position, like it’s almost like a competition with yourself. How many books can you read?
Without the intentionality of what am I reading and why? So I did like some of those as well. I did the Seth Godin, the marketing seminar. I did the podcast workshop as well, and then coach the podcast workshop a couple of times as well.
And so I’ve definitely seen people in those. Realms as well that like keep doing all the different courses compared to some people that do one or two courses and take what they’ve learned and actually go and apply it. So it’s, you definitely can get addicted to a learning, I think, which is it’s not the worst addiction.
There’s plenty of worse addictions out there. But if you can get over that learning addiction and turn it into a doing addiction as well, that’s probably even better.
James: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And not, that’s why I really like what you’ve done with your podcast and what you will learn and the book and everything like that, because it’s, you’re turning this thing. You have books if you were, if you were like just reading the books and taking notes and, as, as your only thing, which is obviously a massive part of the podcast, that by itself is kind of a bit of a, It’s not a waste of time, but it’s, you’re kind of in that wall with saying like the learning addiction type phase, where when you’re actually implementing it in the podcast and you are sharing that information in your sort of condensing it into something that’s valuable for people that makes what you’re doing really valuable.
Consumption, Curation and Creation#
James: And I think that’s, yeah, that’s a great example of taking, even if it’s something like you’re learning, but you’re repackaging it and, making a YouTube channel about it or something, I think that’s, that’ll teach you real skills
and, Really convert that thing into something that’s
Adam Ashton: It’s a good hack. It’s a good kind of middle ground.
I think a lot of people go through, like the, a lot of people go through the learning phase. The, the consumption, the consuming phase where you’re reading books and learning books. And then a lot of people want to get to the creation phase, which is doing something, whether that’s, starting a business, whether that’s working really hard to get the promotion and the, the new fancy title at work whether that’s some kind of creative endeavor on the side, whatever it is, like people want to get to that point.
I think the good middle step between. Consumption and creation is curation, which is kind of where we went with the podcast. It’s kind of like, okay, well we’re learning all this stuff. And then we’re going to try and share that with people as well. We’re going to try and break that down and make it a little bit simpler for other people who want to consume, but probably don’t have the time to read a book every single week.
We’ll kind of be that middle ground. It was a good. For them in that they didn’t have to read a book every week. They could listen to a 30 minute podcast episode on it and get 80% of the value out of it. But it’s also a good hack for us because we probably weren’t, we couldn’t jump straight to the creation phase of making our new stuff.
So this was a good middle ground where we didn’t feel as much pressure with it. Cause we weren’t trying to. Teach everybody all our own. We’re not these gurus is masters from the top of the hill preaching to everyone that we’re right and you’re wrong. And this is how you should do it. It was kind of like we’re in the middle ground of reading books and just sharing that.
So it was a not sort of halfway step, a good little hack, I think.
James: Yeah. Yeah. Haven’t heard it described like that before, and I think that’s, that’s really cool. That’s a good way of thinking about a different. I think that’s a good,
The Start of What You Will Learn#
James: I’m interested to hear more about the podcast and that kind of stuff now. So what was the store and kind of the starting point of this whole podcast?
How did, how did It begin?
Adam Ashton: It definitely started. That was probably the best thing that came out of the answer. Grad program actually definitely started as a, through the NZ grad program. Whereas me and my other mate also called it. We had just finished uni around the same time and we’d both started out big corporate jobs in the city at the same time, both started our grad programs.
And we thought, okay, well, we’re sort of meeting up beforehand. And so let’s try and keep meeting up. And for us, it was also. And attempt to meet up with some girls as well for we’d have our Friday morning coffee and breakfast. And we invited, I think the first week there was probably five or six girls plus us, two guys, maybe one or two other guys as well.
And then the numbers kind of dwindled slowly, slowly, slowly. And it just ended up just being me and Adam were the only ones left. And so, we just started talking about books and what we’re reading, cause we both liked reading. And then we thought, okay, well we’re, we’re kind of talking about books already, but we’re talking about different books that the other person knows nothing about.
So let’s try and sync up and read the same thing at the same time so that we can at least know what the other person’s talking about. And we can discuss it a bit more deeply together. And then it was just like, well, Meaning up once a week to talk about what books we’ve read. Let’s just like whack a microphone in the middle and hit record and see how it goes.
So that’s kind of the, the natural evolution of how it went. And then that was really, it was just we’d hit start, hit, like hit record talk shit that we normally would talk over coffees, but this time just with a mic in between us and then hit stop and then uploaded it and then gradually got more serious over.
James: Yeah, that’s a great store. And, I think starting things like that, where it’s very organic and it’s just something you would be doing anyway, is a great way to kind of even introduce yourself into, like you’re saying that, going from the consumer to the cure. Do they create a, it’s a great sort of first step where it’s like, yeah, we’re just doing this anyway. And it’s almost like that idea as well, where we’re not going to do it because we have this huge audience that’s going to listen to us and, and whatever, but it’s just even for your own your own resources. So you can go back in the future and you can come back and say, oh, what was that book we read?
What did I think about it? Cause I found even for myself, that’s something, that’s one of the really main reasons why I would like write a blog post or do something like that is just so I can go back myself and see like later not, not really at this stage, at least for any massive audience that’s gonna watch as well.
And I think that’s, I think that’s great. What you guys, th th th the starting story of that.
Adam Ashton: Yeah, definitely. I think that’s that. I think that’s really what it was. We started out like, yeah, there’s probably dreams and aspirations of being the next Joe Rogan or Tim Ferriss or something. But but more realistically than that was just like, okay, well we’ll. Part of, it was, we’re not really adding a whole lot.
We want to do some kind of side thing. So, it was an easy entry point, but it was also then thinking about, well, It’d be nice if people listen, but if they don’t, what are we going to get out of it? And there are so many benefits of starting a podcast for us. Like there was the, the book element of it. It forced us to read more.
Like now we’re reading. I think I just in 2021, I think I did like 75 books or something. Whereas at the time I was at like 25 or maybe 30 books a year. So it was kind of forced us to ramp that up to a book a week. Plus then the massive increase in retention because. A lot of those first 30 books that I read, I read them and they felt good at the time.
And then there was probably some good stuff in them, but I couldn’t tell you what was in them whatsoever, but by like kind of dissecting the book, doing notes, preparing an episode, talking about an episode, editing an episode, listening back to an episode at forced us, forced us to retain so much more of what we will.
Then there was also like the, the hard skill of podcasting. Like, what equipment do you get? How to your quarter, where does it go afterwards? So there was like the specific podcast skill, but then there was the more broad Meadows skills are things like communication listening speaking, public speaking, trying to reduce how many times you say um, trying to be clear and concise, trying to have some kind of arc with where you’re going.
So you don’t just like ramble on and on and on, but there’s kind of a point to what you’re saying. So there was kind of all these benefits. Of starting a podcast that even if nobody listened, it was going to be a great project for us. It was really no downside except for the time investment and, 25 bucks to buy a book.
And really the upside was then maybe somebody listens one day.
James: Yeah. I think that’s such a good way to look at a side hustle or a project or whatever it is that like, even if this completely blew off and nothing happened, would it still be beneficial? And if it is, then that’s a great sign that, it’s, what’s what doing.
Adam Ashton: I think if you go into it with the idea of, okay, we’re going to start a podcast. And then in six months time, we’re going to have a hundred thousand listeners every week and we’re going to be making 10 grand a month and we’re going to quit our jobs and, stick the finger up at the boss and go and run around.
And then this is a full-time job. You’re almost definitely not going to or almost definitely not going to achieve that goal because. You’re going to be so focused about the end goal and the money and the listeners and trying to do all that stuff. That really, you’re not really in it for the right reasons.
Whereas if you’re doing it with the downside is just personal growth and personal development and learning and improving yourself. And then maybe down the track, then maybe you do make all that money and have all those listeners and, and become the next Oprah Winfrey or something of podcasting and get massive then.
That’s great.
James: Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s really important even, from that idea of sort of enjoying the process versus having some clear thing, that’s like, okay, yeah, this is definitely going to happen. And like, and then, then life will be good. Once I, once I quit my job and I’m earning this much money from the podcast, then it will be so good.
Rather than it being, like you said, this idea of. We’ll just do it because it’s kind of fun and if it ends up being something good, then that’s great. But if not, then that’s also fine. I think that’s really important.
Adam Ashton: Yeah, exactly. It really is just that through different types of motivation, like either that the extra extrinsic motivation where you’re doing it for the money. Cause you want to get to the point where you’re making five, 10 grand a month. Then if after a month you’re of. $0 or probably negative dollars after you bought your Mike and stuff, then you think, well, this isn’t working, so I’m going to quit.
Compare that to the intrinsic motivation. You want to do it cause you’re developing skills after a month. You’ve definitely ticked that box. You’re achieving those goals and you’re well, on the way.
Cautions on Working on Side Projects While at Work#
James: Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about w before the podcast, we were talking about some things that happened with the workplace and doing this kind of stuff on the side. Was there any kind of friction between, kind of engaging in this sort of commercial endeavor? Also being involved in their full-time work at the same time.
W how did you go with, with navigating that?
Adam Ashton: Definitely a lot of friction. And mostly self-inflicted as well, probably my own fault in the way that I did it. But I’m keen to hear yours as well. What’s how’s yours going with? I know, like I kind of half under the answered culture, I’d say have you gone inside the answer grad program? I was also doing a podcast on the side.
Like, do you, who do you tell? What do you tell them? Does anybody know? Is it top secret? What’s the go what’s your side. And then I’ll, I’ll give you my version as well.
James: Yeah.
I think at the moment, well, I was quite up front with it. Cause I’ve been told by people, I, even while I was kind of, I wasn’t sure what to do really, because I didn’t want it to become this. Like just like, just preparing myself in case it became something really big. And then I was devoting all this time to, I didn’t want to.
Have it, I wasn’t sure how it worked with like sometimes when companies, if you work on something on the side, it like counts is the company’s property still. Like they own everything that you do. So I wasn’t sure if like how that even worked. So I emailed some of the HR gals. I was like, yeah, like this one I’m thinking of doing or like whatever.
And then I had to put in this form that was kind of a, I’m not sure of the exact name, but it’s kind of a declaration of conflict or something. It’s similar to what you would do if your, you were employed in a high position and then like, your brother was like also the CEO of like another company that was like in the same field, like, like something, kind of that conflict.
And they were just like, yeah, it seems pretty fine to me so that there was no issues with that, which was great. And then a lot of the grads in, and everyone knows about it. Some of them will be listening to this episode. I’m sure. And they’re all quite supportive of it, which is good, but yeah, I haven’t so far, I haven’t run into any problems, which has been great.
Adam Ashton: Nice. Yeah, that’s good. So my first big flop, definitely the wrong way I went about it. It was when I was at ANZ ed and we started this podcast and we were reading all these books and learning all this stuff. And we were kind of thinking in read like the one minute manager with he called me and my boss is so shit, why doesn’t she read this this book?
And she’d be so much better as a manager and then. So then, and then like, you’d think about all this other guy in my team. He’s so bad at time management. Why doesn’t he read, eat that frog. And he could actually be good at managing his time and he wouldn’t have to work so hard cause he’d get more done.
And like, so it was probably that like the first 10 books of like the high and mighty. I’m so good. I’m better than you. Why don’t you read this stuff? Which was definitely like, I, I wasn’t like blatantly going up to my boss and saying, you’re a bad manager. You should read this book. But I think it was probably just that air of superiority completely unwarranted, like ridiculously unwarranted as well.
Just that when you first started reading books, I reckon you get, everyone gets a little bit of that the first time. And then, like, I kind of started telling people about the podcast, like I was doing this podcast. Like it was so early on that it was ridiculous to think about that. Like, I’d get, we’d get a hundred downloads or something and like, yeah, it was impressive to us at the time, but to somebody else, so like, why, why should I care?
Like, what’s the, what’s the difference? Like, you’re just like, why are you wasting all this time? Just do your job type of thing. So I kinda got the wrong one about the wrong way to answered and just, it was a ridiculous way to do it and completely your marched at the time as well. And then. We didn’t mention it, but I actually went to Linfox grad program as well after the Anzac grad program.
So I went to the Linfox grad program and I was like, okay, I did it all wrong last time, this time I’m going to do it, rod. I’m not even going to say anything, not going to talk about reading books, not going to talk about the podcast, not going to talk about anything. And so I was actually writing my own book as well.
And the. It was it got to the point where I’d probably spend almost two years writing this book and then finally finished it and then finally got it done and sent off to the printers. And then I was getting 2000 copies, like shipped on a pallet, it was like, I dunno heaps and heaps of big boxes were coming to my place on like a Tuesday afternoon at 4:00 PM or something.
So. I managed to sneak out without telling you, I didn’t say I’m going to pick up this book that I just wrote. Because I was, I didn’t want to tell anybody. So I managed to sneak out, got home and I’d miss them by like 20 minutes. And they were like, okay, we’re going to have to come back tomorrow and get it.
So then I was like, oh shit, what do I do now? Th I should have just faked a sickie. But I call my boss and I was like, oh, sorry, I had to rush off. Cause I was getting, I had written this book and I got this book printed and I was getting 2000 copies and, and I had to get it, but I miss them. So now I’m going to have to stay home tomorrow to get this.
And at the time he was kinda like, oh, that’s, that’s good. Bring us a copy in short round when the next day when he come back and it was kind of like, should I do that? And the answer was, no, I probably shouldn’t have at that time in that place. But I did the next day, I brought in a book and showed people and us, and I could tell from that moment again, that things kind of shifted again.
And this is not to say this is going to be for every company for every situation. But for me at the time, the team I was in the people I was working with and probably the attitude that I was also carrying as well, it was it was a very horrendous mix. So that was like my, my stumbling block. So then like fast forward, maybe six weeks I could tell the boss had his perception of me had changed in the wrong way.
And I was in a team of a lot of older people who had been at the company for a long time and who had probably been in the same role for a long time as well, who are a bit older and a bit slower. And they just, they knew what they had to do and they got it done and then went home at 5 0 1 every single day.
Whereas I kind of come in with it a little bit more youthful, exuberance and energy, and. We’ll try to work a little bit harder after my first failure at ANZ ed. And then anyway, so I had to, I had to go see her one time. Cause she said that, that the boss had said a few things about me and she wanted to check that everything was okay.
And she said that the boss had said to her. I think Adam’s working on another book on work time. I was like, what? And apparently the reason was that I was just typing too fast and I was working too hard and I was too enthusiastic at work. And I was like, well, is that a bad thing? She’s like, yeah, can you, maybe it will be a good idea if you just typed slower.
I was like, what? So I do less work and that’s going to be better. And so it was just because like, like everybody around here was like old and slow and they just did what they had to do. They kept their head down, they stayed in there, they stayed in their lane. And that was that. Whereas I’d sort of come in and tried to do a few different things and, and that was a bad thing.
So you definitely have to be careful of who you pick and tell what you’re up to, how you do it when you do it, if you should do it whatsoever. But that was definitely another red flag and probably long story short. I also wasn’t in that grad program for too long either. Before leaving again,
James: Hmm. Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s a cool story and I think it’s a lot, like you’re saying it’s important to, I guess now you’ve had this experience. It makes it easier. You wouldn’t like, it’s hard to know at the time. And if this is a useful lesson, I think for people listening, right. To make sure you care with what you’re sharing and
Adam Ashton: I learned, I learned the lesson the first time, and then I just couldn’t, I couldn’t, I knew that I shouldn’t be doing it, but I couldn’t resist the second time. I was so proud of like, of doing this book at like 22, 23 years old. I’d done this book and I’d got 2000 copies. I was so kind of too excited to keep it to myself.
But but that’s not to say that everybody would have that same experience, but you definitely just do have to think about who you tell and how and when and why. And.
Yeah. I think like a lot of people, if you’re in the right place, a lot of people will be super supportive cause it’s great. And they know that, okay, if I’ve, I’ve done this podcast, it means that I’m learning a lot of stuff.
It means I can speak better. Maybe there’s some opportunity where then I can present something at a, at a meeting because I’ve improved these skills. I’ve written. Written this book on my own time, not on work time as, as I suspected, but in my own time, on the side, I’d worked hard to interview these people, to get all this information and collate it all down into a concise book that maybe there’s some opportunity that outside the normal job work and say, okay, well you’ve done this before.
Can you do, I don’t know, media release or whatever it is, like, do something to use those skills that I’ve learned outside. So if you’re in the right place, I think they’ll recognize that doing things on the side. Dude your skills and it actually makes you more valuable, more useful to the organization and not tap into that.
But of course, if you’re in the wrong organization or in the wrong team or have the wrong boss then you probably gotta be careful with, they probably see it as a negative. They probably see it as detracting value. Like you’re improving over here. So you’re going down over in, in my team, which is convert or weird way to look at it.
But it’s definitely one way that a lot of people do look at it.
James: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me, I think that’s I’m really glad you shared that because it’s something that I wouldn’t have even considered like that could be a possibility of happening. So it’s, I think that’s important. Yeah. For, for anyone doing something on the side, it’s important that you’re yeah. Kind of, I’ll be up front about it.
in some ways, but also you want to be conscious of what kind of a team you’re in an environment consider if it’s going to be, if you want to work there in the longterm, is this going to be a good thing to share or not?
Which I guess in some cases you have got to be careful of that. Which is, like you said, probably unfortunate that a team wouldn’t want to support you, but yeah, I think it’s definitely something that you’ve got to keep your eye on.
Adam Ashton: Yeah. Not most certainly, but it makes for a good story at least. Yeah.
Favourite lessons from The Shit They Never Taught You#
James: So writing that book in the office that you.
shared with the guys at work, Now you’ve gone to write a second book or at least one on those real paths. It’s not your second. I know you do a lot of this kind of thing.
Adam Ashton: Oh yeah. Second
James: Yeah.
Adam Ashton: Probably second.
James: Like, Well, you’ve written, it’s called the shit.
They never taught you. And it’s a fantastic, obviously I was going to say a summary, but I know it’s much more than just a summary. It’s, you’ve combined things in such a nice way. It’s, there’s a lot of interaction even between the summaries and it’s, I mean, it’s a really great, and it’s probably one of the best books I’ve read, to be honest, that saving is, huge as well.
So it’s something that, yeah. Yeah. it’s something, a lot of thing you can always turn back to and, find that particular section to look at. But I’m curious for you, is there anything like any of these books that you’ve read in any of this kind of whole work around the book, are there any really key lessons that you, that you are really front of mind and things that you do today?
Adam Ashton: Definitely. And definitely the, I think it’s. Less than seven. I think the various pods to mastery the first sort of the first lesson of our, our career section. And, and it’s the, the idea about the two different ways to achieving mastery are two different, the two different ways you can achieve success.
Range and Mastery#
Adam Ashton: And probably the biggest one that was a real face slapper, a real eye-opener for me. I think I read it. I read it at the very end of 2019 and then like, read it again. Two weeks later at the very side of 2020, it was like so good that I had to read it twice within, within a couple of weeks was a book that you’ve also mentioned a couple of times in the podcast range by David Epstein.
Do you want to give you a quick summary of, of range and then I’ll give my sort of how to, how it applies to, or how I think about it?
James: Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, yeah, ranges I’ve know if it’s weather, like I’m kind of pursuing the range path as well. That makes me like it more. I’m not sure I have some biased. Yeah,
Adam Ashton: That’s definitely me.
James: But Yeah, it’s, it’s kind of this idea that. Being more of a generalist can lead to sort of synergies down the line that can make you more effective rather than just picking one niche thing and just going, going at it a hundred percent.
So the example of that it gives in the book is kind of the Roger Federer and the tiger woods example. So tiger woods is kind of this guy who was, I don’t know the exact age, but the young guy, it must be like five or six or something signed to play golf. And he’s gone sort of a hundred percent on golf since like he was a young kid and then he’s obviously gone on to become the world champion, really famous and all that.
And then you’ve got Roger Federer. Who’s kind of the, what’s the opposite in a lot of ways where he’s, he’s playing soccer, he’s doing all this other sport, and he’s really only starting to play tennis properly when he’s about 16. And so the idea is like, having those those experiences behind him allowed him to become much better at tennis.
And he would have been, if he’d just sort of done the tiger woods thing. And so there’s this idea where you have the there’s different sort of things that you can do in life, where some things are kind of like golf and like chess, where it’s easy to, they’re kind of, it’s like a pattern recognition type thing where it’s easy to predict what’s going on and, and, and to get good at it, you really got to practice a lot and kind of go a hundred percent.
And then there’s a lot of things which is probably more akin or at least that’s what David Epstein says in life is kind of more akin to like a tennis or something, whether the game is a bit more unpredictable. And so you need those variety of experiences to, to succeed more easily. So, yeah, that’s kind of my summary and it’s something, I guess, how that would impact even my career choices is like, let’s try and get a bit of a background in heaps of different areas.
Kind of it’s sometimes the crossover between areas that allows you to have those new insights or add more value than someone that’s just, only exposed to that one particular area.
Adam Ashton: Yeah, definitely. That was a good summary. You should do a book
James: Yeah.
Adam Ashton: The, yeah, so for me there was a real eye-opener and just seeing him. The specialist and the, and the generalist. Rebranded it into like going wide versus going deep. Like, yeah, if you want to S if there is an area that you want to specialize in and it does make sense that it is like more of a golf or more of a chess type of profession, where there is a clear.
Answering a clear way to do it. The way to achieve success is to be the best person at that, which means working the hardest at that one niche should a field and getting going really, really deep. And the books that kind of link with that is like that outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, talking about Anders Ericsson’s the 10,000 hours rule saying like that the violent violinists who had practiced for 10,000 hours achieved mastery So it’s saying, okay, if you want to go deep in something, get your 10,000 hours work really hard. Work more than everybody else learn more than everybody else achieve better things than everybody else. We also kind of LinkedIn grit by Angela Duckworth saying that, okay, well, along the path, it’s going to be bloody tough.
So you need a bit of grit to get through. You need to be picking the right thing to go deep at, and then using grit to get through to those 10,000 hours. And really the end of that journey, you do become a master in your field and you do become successful. If that’s the path that you choose. And it’s a very viable path to success, but it’s not the only path to success.
I think a lot of people probably think that is the only path is to work really, really hard at one thing and become the best at that. But there is another way to achieving success, which is going wide, the generalist approach which we like the books range. As I said by David Epstein and originals by Adam Grant saying that it’s not just the one who works the hardest.
Maybe it’s the one who’s done. Two years in this three years in this two years over here, another four years over here. And at the time it kind of looks like a weird path They’re jumping around from different things. They’re learning different skills that seem somewhat unrelated at the time, but then sort of magically at the end, they come around to this point where they find the intersection of all these different skills.
They find the synergies, they find the ways to stack all these things together so that they become the best in this one sort of niche intersection of all these different things that nobody else could possibly do. Because they haven’t built up all the different skills. And yeah, as you say, you’ve probably a bit more biased towards that.
Cause that’s kind of the path you’re on and that’s definitely made as well. But I think that it holds a lot of merit and I think that just knowing that there is a different path rather than just the peak one thing and work really hard at it, knowing that there is, if you do want to jump around from different things, make sure don’t just like jump around, quit something.
Cause you don’t like it, then try something else and quit it. Cause you don’t like it. You need that bit of intentionality around it around what different skills are you building? That then one day at the end. It seems like you might be a failure at the start. And then at the end you magically have stacked all these different things together to achieve your, your different.
James: Hmm. Yeah, I think it’s so important. And a lot of these books I think are fantastic and, giving you those insights into, the themes behind people that have done great things, and it’s important to get those perspectives, like you were saying, there’s sort of the range. Perspective and then this, even, the go deep in one area kind of perspective.
I think it’s really, that’s why I think reading books and I’m sure you’re experienced too has been so good is because, getting those inputs and hearing about these stories from a heaps of different.
angles can help you to formulate your own opinions on these things and to kind of then better choose the policy you want to go down.
I think is really, really great. And I think, yeah, there’s so much like so much value to be gained out of these things, but also only if you actually act on what you’ve read as well. I think it’s really important.
What Drives Adam to be Successful#
James: One thing I want to ask you too, is about this idea of success and things like that. So a lot of the time when we talk about range and things like that, we’re saying, okay, I’m going to go down this range path of, in my career and become a bit of a generalist because that’s going to make me successful with it.
And I’m really curious, what is kind of the driving factor for you behind sort of wanting to succeed and all that kind of stuff in the first place? Is there anything that, any motivations or any things that really stick out to you as the reasons why you want to go down that path?
Adam Ashton: Yeah, it’s an interesting one. I think it’s probably just like that inbuilt competitive nature. Definitely. I think it’s probably a, to go a little bit introspective, probably like that. Do I do have a high opinion of myself and think that I’m very good. So I think that I should be working hard to, prove to everybody else that I’m as good as I think I am.
So there’s definitely that is definitely like that sort of, I guess, a societal norm or just the nature that’s kind of what everyone’s striving towards, that these are the types of things that are recognized. Sort of conventionally is what success looks like. So if I want to be successful, I’ve got to kind of achieve those things.
I think I’ve probably somewhat matured a little bit in that. Obviously at the start of my career, success meant a fancy title and a good job and a big house and lots of money type of thing. Whereas now my things that I’m probably more working towards a lot more. Autonomy control freedom is probably too loose and too loosely used like financial freedom and stuff.
So it kind of is freedom, but I don’t really like that word more flexibility. I would say more choices, more options. And so I guess what I mean by that is like this financial year just gone was like the first time that mice. Income overtook my full-time income. So I’m still working full time, but also, still doing all this stuff on the side.
And probably when I was 21, my goal was to be, make a million dollars, whatever. Um, whereas now the, the goal was just to have the options, knowing that, okay. Yes, I’m still working full time, but I’ve got this side stuff that is growing now at the time when I first quit aims at, I thought there was side income when there really wasn’t anything sustainable, but now it’s more about like the.
The flexibility around. I’d rather like it’s not just about, sitting at the desk at 6:00 AM and work until 8:00 PM and then and working really, really hard. It’s more like, okay, well, what can I do that actually provides a lot of value and is highly leveraged and is effective work where I can do, two, three hours of really hard work.
And then go play golf in the afternoon. For example, so it’s not necessarily just about working, working hard to get more money and more status and more clients and more business and more success in that sense. It’s probably more about, okay, what can I do that actually adds value? But then use the rest of the time to do things that I actually enjoy, whether that’s, seeing friends, new hobbies, reading, learning, doing other stuff on the side.
And a lot of the times the choice comes from the choice I make is doing extra stuff is doing more work. And not because I feel like I have to because I want to. But then there is that option to do the other things.
James: Yeah, I think that’s, yeah, I think that was a really good answer. I think.
Adam Ashton: I think it was a good
James: Yeah. Yeah.
I think it’s, I think it’s important to understand the cause. Like even for myself, I don’t really think about that very often. Like why I’m even, you know, why on I just playing video games all day, cause it’s probably like it and then it’s, maybe it’s not very fulfilling, these kinds of things.
And I think, like you’re saying, it’s, you’ve got, we’ve got so much to offer. And it’d be a waste not to go out there and make the world a better place because of the things that we can do. And, and that goes not just for a year that goes through a round, even the people listening and, pretty everyone has something to offer.
And so it’s important that, and that’s really unique and look at this from many, many angles, but I think it is important that you kind of consider why you’re even on the sort of success train or, whatever, why are you actually doing the things you want to do? And really, yeah.
Sort of, even that really intrinsic motivation and really getting clear on that, I think is important. Cause that even leads into, that intentionality and things like that as well. That’s going to help you make choices and career decisions and things like that based on like the life and the things that you want to do.
But, Yeah, I think it’s really
Adam Ashton: Yeah, I definitely, I really like books that have like two, like you read one book, you’re like, oh my God, this is incredible. Here’s the answer. This is the one thing. This is amazing. And then you read another book and you’re like, oh my God, this is incredible. Is the answer. This is perfect. This is amazing.
But then you realize that they’re both saying opposite things, but both true. So. Like outliers and range. It kind of like saying opposite one saying work really hard. Get really good at this one thing, a range of saying go wide, get really good at a whole bunch of different things and then stack them all together.
So they kind of the opposites, there’s a whole bunch of other Other sort of, books that seemed like they’re both, they’re both a hundred percent, right. But they’re also 180 degrees opposed. I’m looking forward to getting into my next batch of those, which another friend who does a book podcast has been talking about two books 4,000 hours.
So. 4,004,000 weeks, 4,000 weeks. I’m saying like, you’ve got basically on average 4,000 weeks to live. And so it’s kinda like, well, life short, you’re going to die soon. So everything matters. You got to work through the hugs, everything matters. And then there’s another book she says is the sunny nihilist talking about nihilism in it and a more relaxed approach saying life’s short, you’re going to die.
So nothing. And they’re both kind of true. Like you can either go the man I’ve got so much limited time, I’ve got to work hard to achieve all these things. And that is true. Or you can say, well, I’ve got so much limited time. What does it matter? Then I can just kick, kick the feet up and get the video game path.
And that’s probably also true as well. kind of thinking, okay, well, which of those should you pick?
James: Yeah, Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that’s a great answer. I think it’s great that we can, you can read a book and you can get those perspectives in that. Cause I think it’s so important to not go a hundred percent, one way and to realize there is an alternative and, and there’s actually a pretty good alternative.
And it’s not just like, someone just thinking on a Sunday afternoon, some random idea, like someone’s actually, there is some merit behind, these alternative ideas I think.
How To Start Reading#
James: Yeah, I think that’s great. W I wanna, I’ve got two more things. I really want to know. And one is kind of a more basic question, I guess, but a reading habit is something that perhaps people have signed to, maybe they’re listening to us speak and talk about all these books and I want to stop this rating rating journey.
What advice would you give to someone that’s starting to rate and, and sort of developing that rating habit and that re interesting rating. And how would you go about developing that habit?
Adam Ashton: Yeah, for me, it started from listening to podcasts and I’ll be listening to a Tim Ferriss or James Altucher or whoever I was listening to at the time. And there’ll be interviewing all these different successful people in all these different fields. It seemed that every single successful person had some book that they could point back to and be like, yeah, I read this book and it changed my perspective, or it gave me this one idea that revolutionized everything type of thing.
So I was like, damn well, if all these guys are reading books and all these successful people are reading books and all these powerful business women and men, and everybody’s reading books and thinking. I probably should start reading books as well. So that’s probably where I first had it. So it felt like I wanted to read books, not like I had to read books.
Cause if you’re listening to this and you’re like, oh man, Adam and James are saying that we should read books. I better go start reading books and it’s not going to work because that was high school. That’s, you got to read Shakespeare and Dickens and whatever, all this crap to cause you have to read it and you don’t want to, but if you actually genuinely want to read it.
Definitely the first step to developing that habit is doing it because you want to do it similarly, like picking the books that you want to read, that you’re genuinely interested in. That there’s a, a natural curiosity about not just because somebody says it’s the best book and you have to read it. So yeah, that’s probably the, the meta level is like wanting to read first and then picking books that you’re actually interested in.
And then the rest is probably a little bit easier, but the more on the ground stuff is for me. Not viewing reading as this big task where you have to set aside an hour of pure silence with no distractions where you just gotta lie there and read. It feels like a chore then for me, it’s more just like, I’ve got a pocket for five minutes here.
I’ll just read a couple of pages and then yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now I’ve got to, I’ve got a spare 12 minutes over here, so I’ll read a little bit here and then just trying to fit it in between the cracks of the day. And it seems easy as opposed to just saying this is, you got to block out this one specific big batch of time.
That’s your reading time.
James: Yeah, I think that’s been that idea that you said earlier about being interested in doing it first. I think it’s fundamental for, for so many things and I’ll just slowly, you don’t want it to be this thing where like, oh yeah, I have to read, like, if I want to become successful after read, like, and then force yourself through books.
I mean, that’s just, you’re not going to get anything out of it. It’s going to be probably more of a waste of your time than if you just did nothing, because you’re, it’s probably more painful. But Yeah.
so I think that’s great.
Adam’s Advice for Graduates#
James: And then one question that I want to finish with today, Adam, we’ve spoken about, your great experience and the podcast and things like that.
And I want to take it back to some, some advice that you would give some graduates that are listening, it might be their first year in the workplace, knowing that all the things that you know now and all the experiences you’ve gone through, what is one or perhaps you’ve got multiple pieces of advice for people that are in that season.
Adam Ashton: Hm. I, before we started, I had three, like three in mine that I want to mention. But I’m going to change it. Maybe we’ll have to do, like in a year or two, we’ll have to do a second app and I’ll give those out those other three that I was going to give, but maybe it’s changed about them, but I’m actually going to change it on the fly and combine the first answer I gave.
And the last answer I gave talking about the. The whole grad experience. I went through the first time where I saw it as a game and a competition, and I thought I was in it, so I had to do it and I had to beat everybody else. And I, this was just the, the path that everyone’s taking. So, okay.
I’m going to jump on this path and try and do it better than everybody else. Cause I have to cause that’s what everybody does. That was the wrong approach. Obviously the right approach is that the want to approach that we kinda spoke about when it comes to reading, like if you actually genuinely want to do it and you actually have a genuine curiosity about it and you see there are benefits.
Yeah. You’re reading books and you see that there are things that you can learn and apply to whatever it is you’re doing work, career, business, relationships, friendships, whatever it is then you’re actually going to enjoy reading. So if I actually flipped my perspective on work and saw it as something that I wanted to do and saw it as something where I can.
Develop skill something where I can learn new things, something where I can build some, a bit of a reputation or a bit of a brand or build a network. Or if I can, if I actually saw all those benefits and it became something I wanted to do then it would have been a much better experience for me.
And now I’m sure I’m sure right now, if I was a grad, I would be so much better as a grad than I was five years ago as a grad that’s for sure. I think the advice is not to quit your dread job and, and start a business or whatever it is that you might be thinking. I think it’s realizing that you can do both.
You can have the full-time job plus stuff on the side, and they’re not competing with each other. They can actually compliment each other. And just placing more value, I guess, on, on how I saw the grad experience, rather than just dismissing it as, oh, I’m doing all this stuff on the side. So this stuff is less than.
James: Yeah, I think that’s great advice, certainly. All right. Well, I think, yeah, I think it’s so important to be conscious of the things that you’re going to enjoy doing and, and go down that path a little bit more and rather than trying to force yourself or just do things because someone told you to do it or because there’s going to be some kind of an outcome that you’re kind of waiting for.
Yeah. I think that’s so
Adam Ashton: And I probably want to add one extra clarification on what I said as well. I’m not necessarily doing it. Doing it because you want to do it as in the sense of, find your passion and then and then follow your passion and do only do the things that you want to do. And don’t do anything else that you don’t want to do.
It’s probably more about realizing that there are opportunities everywhere and almost cultivating the passion, like finding a passion for it by doing it. Not just turning down a job offer. Cause you say, I don’t like banking. I’m not going to do banking or I don’t like law. I’m not going to do law. That’s probably the wrong approach, but realizing that, okay, you can, if you do it properly and you take it seriously and you recognize the benefits, then you actually will want to do it.
So it’s not necessarily about picking something because you want to do it, but wanting to do it because you’ve picked it. If that makes
James: Mm. Yeah, it’s, it’s kind of that cart before the horse sort of situation, which can be, can be tricky, but I think. Yeah, I think all that advice is, is really, really important. And it’s important that you even just be, take some time and thinking about how this kind of stuff impacts you to yourself and not just listen to this episode and okay.
That tick, like listen to the episode done, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s about like, okay, this is what the guys said. How does this impact me? What things am I going to do as a result of this, I think is be intentional about listening to this episode too. I think. And then that piece of advice as well, I think is really important.
Outro#
James: Well, thanks so much for coming on today, Adam. I think we’ve had a fantastic chat, but if people are listening and I want to get in touch with you further, they want to hear about, more about what you do. Where’s the best place for them to go.
Adam Ashton: I suppose me personally probably LinkedIn. You can find not that I’m active there at all, but actually, but I’ll check it at least. And then if you want to check out the podcast, what you will learn.com or search, you’re listening to podcast. I already said search for what you will learn. And then the books there as well, they never taught you.
James: Amazing. Well, yeah, thanks so much to today, Adam and dad, we have you on in two years’ time to chat about
Adam: Okay, I’ll give you those three answers. I was actually going to give you next
James: Yeah. Perfect. Well, yeah, see you then.
James: Thanks so much for listening to Graduate Theory and thanks for making it all the way to the end of this episode. If you’re interested in keeping in touch and hearing more about Graduate Theory, I’d really encourage you to subscribe wherever you may be.
And if you want to find out more, if you want to get my insights, my deeper thoughts on the episode today, please go to Graduate Theory.com/subscribe, where you can subscribe to the newsletter and you can read my additional thoughts on today’s. Thanks so much again for listening today and we’ll see you in the next episode.